Windows 8: This is the Future of Windows

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.winrumors.com/windows-8-really-does-change-everything-its-mind-blowing/' target='_blank'>http://www.winrumors.com/windows-8-...s-mind-blowing/</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"Microsoft is welcoming around 5,000 developers to its BUILD conference today to unveil the most significant change in the PC space since Windows 95. "It's a launch," explains Windows chief Steven Sinofsky. "It's a launch of an opportunity for developers. That's a lot, it's a big deal to do today and tomorrow," he says during an opening address to media and analysts in Anaheim California. You sense the sense of excitement in the room and the realisation that Windows 8 is a really big deal for Microsoft, a deal that cannot go wrong."</em></p><p><object width="600" height="360" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/mkTxICo2sf4&amp;ap=&fmt=18" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mkTxICo2sf4&amp;ap=&fmt=18" /></object></p><p>It's taken years, but Microsoft has finally delivered a truly workable touch-based interface. Check out the video above; the performance is stunning. Everything is smooth and impressively fluid. Yes, this is a developer's build so it's not finished, but seeing performance like this early on is a great indicator of what's to come. Windows 8 is also significantly lighter on resources than Windows 7; <a href="http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/13/windows-8-can-run-on-an-atom-cpu-1gb-of-ram/" target="_blank">Engadget's post says</a> that Windows 7 SP1 required 404 MB of RAM and had 32 processes running. Compare that to Windows 8 using only 281 MB of RAM and having 28 processes - that's big, big improvement.</p><p>Are you excited? I'm excited! More coverage here on <a href="http://www.businessinsider.com/hands-on-with-the-windows-8-slate-its-fantastic-2011-9" target="_blank">Business Insider</a> and <a href="http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/13/windows-8-for-tablets-hands-on-preview/" target="_blank">Engadget</a>.</p>

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

It's nice, but what happens when you go to a legacy app? You know, the real reason for running Windows. :P

[Macguy59]

I like the looks of it but keep it mind the demo is running on a Core i5 so I'm skeptical of how it will do on the ARM type of processors necessary for tablets

[cweeks]

This is *exactly* what I've been waiting for! I've said for the last year that if MS can create a true tablet version of Windows that runs true Windows applications, that they would have a real iPad killer. Depends on marketing, operation speed, design, and weight, but this looks like a winner.

I predict that, if it's good on all fronts mentioned above, that it will have major control of the market within 3 years.

I'm not holding my breath, though. MS has a habit of destroying good ideas with bad marketing... or no marketing at all.

Time will tell...

[Sven Johannsen]

It's nice, but what happens when you go to a legacy app? You know, the real reason for running Windows. :P
You run it the way it was intended, with a keyboard and mouse. I'm not going to do word processing on an on-screen keyboard. I'm not going to do Visio drawings with my fingers. There are things appropriate to portable touch screen, and things appropriate for 'workstations'. If the hardware can be one and the same, great.

I have Win7 touch screens, from 20+" to 9", an iPad and an Iconia Tab (well, that's my wife's). I can do all the things comparably on the Win 7 that is typical on the other tablets, media, browsing, e-mail reading, light response, games. Things that take more defined interaction, creating a presentation, writing a paper, that sort of thing, really cry out for a keyboard, at least, on all the platforms. Note that keyboards are in no short supply for Android and iPad.

Thing is, 100% of the apps are touch friendly on the iPad/Android, where that percentage is pretty low on the Windows machines. That's an app issue, not a platform issue. ISVs could easily make touch friendly Windows apps. They would have to ensure that they worked with keyboard and mouse as well, since touch capable windows machines aren't ubiquitous. That's the kicker I think. For the other devices a developer can assume a user might have a keyboard (maybe a mouse/touch pad) for windows he can assume the user might have a touch screen.

[Jason Dunn]

It's nice, but what happens when you go to a legacy app? You know, the real reason for running Windows. :P

There's a lot of confusion around this issue - some people seem to think that the Metro interface *is* Windows 8 and the legacy desktop is an emulated environment or something. That just can't be right. Windows 8 is still Windows; the Metro interface is just a really good overlay.

[Jason Dunn]

I like the looks of it but keep it mind the demo is running on a Core i5 so I'm skeptical of how it will do on the ARM type of processors necessary for tablets

Agreed. Microsoft had better have some TIGHT code on the ARM version, because even with a quad-core 1.5 Ghz ARM CPU, you won't get the same performance as an x86 CPU (let alone GPU). Another concern I have is the footprint of Windows 8; OEMs are going to want to make 16 GB tablets. Windows 8 can't take up 12 GB of storage + breathing room. Windows 8 needs to slim way down...

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

The whole point of having Windows is to run legacy programs. Take that away and there's no real advantage to running it.

It's a bit like Windows Mobile on the HTC HD2. Damn great Sense overlay, but you don't want to run any other programs on it after that.

[Jason Dunn]

The whole point of having Windows is to run legacy programs. Take that away and there's no real advantage to running it.

Really? What are you going to run instead, Linux? :D

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

On tablets? iOS or Android. So yes, Linux. :P

[Sven Johannsen]

The whole point of having Windows is to run legacy programs. Take that away and there's no real advantage to running it.
Are you really planning on standing in line at the DMV, holding your tablet in one hand and banging out a Word document with one finger? Or are you going to reserve that sort of activity for when you can dock the sucker to a proper keyboard, mouse and monitor.

There is no point in having a Tablet that doesn't have finger friendly capability, but I disagree that MS needs to fingerize Office, or other productivity software. With this you can continue to use those windows applications you love, in the same way you always did, take advantage of the new touch friendly capabilities, apps, etc. and cross use in a pinch. You can review and make minor edits with your fingers in Word and Excel standing in line at the DMV today, and they demonstrated you can manage the Metro interface and apps with a mouse and keyboard if you so choose.

This is way different than Sense on WM. WM was never perticularly touch friendly to begin with. Worked fine with a stylus, but when the other guys convinced everyone capacitive was golden, and styli were bad, the experience went to hell. Here you have a perfectly good and valid experience to start with, and are just adding an additional UI to it.

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

Again, you guys are missing my point. If you're not going to run legacy programs on Windows 8, what is the advantage over iOS or Android?

[Macguy59]

Hmmmm IE on W8 doesn't support flash or Silverlight. Win 8 tabs won't run current desktop apps either. So is this being positioned as a consumption device ?

[ptyork]

Hmmmm IE on W8 doesn't support flash or Silverlight. Win 8 tabs won't run current desktop apps either. So is this being positioned as a consumption device ?

There are two modes, not entirely unlike Lion. Metro's the default, but you can think of it as a gigantic upgrade to the start menu--it actually replaces the start menu entirely. The Win key toggles the metro tiles and the active app (whether its a metro app or a legacy, desktop app).

There are also two browser modes. In Metro mode (chromeless, slick as heck), it's HTML5 only. In legacy mode (resizable window...basically Win 7) you get full support for ActiveX (and thus Flash + Silverlight). Interesting plan. I guess it makes sense. You want to move folks away from these plug-ins but still provide them the capability when necessary. Switching from Metro to legacy browser is a click of a button, so no big deal.

As for legacy apps, they are most certainly supported in legacy mode. Looks and works just like Win 7. Again, the only change is the start menu.

Now of course if you're talking about ARM-based tablets, all but .Net (and Java I suppose) apps will require a platform-specific version. Not much different really than the move from PowerPC to Intel for you mackie-types. I'm pretty sure most vendors will offer recompiled binaries. I'm also pretty certain there'll be a way of turning on x86 emulation, even if it's off by default.

To the performance doubters, I'm running the developer preview using a relatively crappy VirtualBox VM with NO hardware acceleration on a 4 year-old Core 2 duo and it's smooth. Not butter, but far closer to cottage cheese than cheddar (hmm, probably taking that metaphor a bit too far). It FLIES when I dual boot into it using the same hardware sans virtualization. Believe me, it'll be more then efficient enough to fly on the tablets of 2012.

As to your last question, it is billed as a "no compromise" OS. Here's hoping they deliver...

[Jason Dunn]

On tablets? iOS or Android. So yes, Linux. :P

Oh, OK, so you're talking about Windows 8 on ARM processors, and what the advantage is if there's no app compatibility. A few things come to mind:

1) Microsoft might do some sort of VM to get around the issue in a broad sense
2) You can guarantee that Microsoft is going to be putting huuuuge resources ($$$) behind encouraging developers to port their x86 apps to ARM. They know what it's like to launch a platform with no apps (WP7) and I doubt they'll go into this blindly
3) There's something quite appealing about having a real file system and having the power and flexibility of Windows. As much as I like my iPad 2, there are times when I curse Apple's rigid dogma around it not being a real computer

[Jason Dunn]

Hmmmm IE on W8 doesn't support flash or Silverlight. Win 8 tabs won't run current desktop apps either. So is this being positioned as a consumption device ?

Microsoft knows that ARM is only going to get bigger and bigger, and in the laptop/tablet space could very easily challenge Intel, so moving to ARM is a way to hedge their bets. There will be some mad app porting going on as developers jostle for first-mover advantage on Windows 8 ARM. Plus, there will be a "real" app store, so there's money to be made.

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

Here you have a perfectly good and valid experience to start with, and are just adding an additional UI to it.

See the number of naysayers who say Windows 7 stinks UI-wise for tablets.

Oh, OK, so you're talking about Windows 8 on ARM processors, and what the advantage is if there's no app compatibility.

No I'm not. I'm talking about the legions of people who say Windows 7 is tablet-unfriendly (this is strictly UI only). So what makes Windows 8 attractive if the tablet-friendly part is gone the moment you swap to a legacy app?

You end up with a platform a slick UI with virtually NO apps, vs a somewhat oudated platform like iOS with a lot of apps, and the up-and-coming Android platform which is gaining traction every day. What is the point?

I'm challenging the Windows 7 doubters who are praising Windows 8 more than I'm dissing Windows 8. I'd happily work in Windows 7 as a tablet with a few software tweaks (mostly to enable kinetic scrolling), so this isn't that much of an issue for me. So don't get me wrong, I do think Windows 8 is going to be nice, but at the same time its main strength (legacy apps) isn't going to play well with one of its secondary strengths (slick UI) that quickly.

[Jason Dunn]

See the number of naysayers who say Windows 7 stinks UI-wise for tablets.

I'm one of those. Sven and I have had numerous discussions on this; Windows 7 works pretty good for touch on a large screen. My Lenovo M90z has a 23" screen and after a couple of UI tweaks, is fairly touch friendly. Nowhere near as touch-friendly as a dedicated touch UI though like my Windows Phone or my iPad 2 though...maybe 50% of the way there.

So what makes Windows 8 attractive if the tablet-friendly part is gone the moment you swap to a legacy app?

The idea is, I think, that developers are really going to get behind making Metro-friendly touch apps. And if I can have a tablet that doesn't have size/weight/battery/heat/noise compromises, I'll gladly take something that I can use "tablet apsp" on most of the time, but when I need to use Outlook, I can. That would rock! Oh, and so would having a real file system. :D

[Sven Johannsen]

See the number of naysayers who say Windows 7 stinks UI-wise for tablets.90% of them iOS and Android devotees who want it to fail ;)

As Jason said I disagree that it is all that bad. I regularly use my DUO and HP slate in touch mode, 9 and 10" screen respectively. Slate supports a pen, Duo doesn't. Yes full blown Windows apps, that were written expecting a 23" monitor, keyboard and mouse are virtually unusable....but a good deal of things I do are emminantly doable. IE is not bad, getting into media is not bad, even Outlook is OK. Angry birds, solitaire, etc. work just fine. MS has a touch pack of little apps that highlight the ability of touch to work, some games, a 3D Earth supporting multitouch and others. The issue in my view is that it isn't the OS that is the problem here, it is the apps, and the expectation of the app developers, along with the hardware manufactures unwillingnes to sink any R&D into a Windows tablet, beyond throwing a GUI on startup, on top of Netbook hardware. Netbooks suck. Shouldn't be surprised that a netbook with a touch screen isn't thrilling.

The biggest issue is UI sizing. the little things you need to click with a mouse are sometimes hard to hit with a finger. Again I think this is largely a hardware issue. The close X on my Windows Tablet is really no smaller than many UI features on my cell phones. The icons on my iPhone aren't any bigger than the ones on my Windows task bar. Office ribbon icons are as big as any soft key on Focus. Why should I have a harder time hitting them? Well, if the touch screen isn't the right resolution for the task..... I have actually learned to be pretty accurate with my finger. I can be damn accurate using the N-Trig stylus on my Slate. [Aside - if you see a stylus they did it wrong. BS. Note that stylii for capacitive touch screens are quite popular, even though it is like writting with a large felt marker. With my Slate I can select music with my finger, type a letter with my keyboard, and sign that document with a pen.]

The Samsung Tablet passed out is an i5 with 4G of RAM, if I'm not mistaken. It ran Windows apps. Notably Visual Studio, as well as the new W8 gui and apps. The catch is going to be if that class machine is going to cost $2000 and last 2 hours, or if they understand it needs to be sub $1000 and last 8. I don't think it needs to undercut the cheapest iPad and Android Tablets, but it needs to be reasonable for what it does, which is more than run overgrown phone software.

Suffice it to say, I'm a tablet fan. Love my iPad, but there are things it doesn't do well. I don't expect it to. Thing is I don't think there is anything I can do with the iPad that I couldn't do with the right software (which admittedly doesn't exist yet) on a Windows based Tablet.

Apple folks - tell me you wouldn't like the option of running OSX on your iPad, even if you had to use a magic dock, magic keyboard, and magic mouse. You know OSX isn't (or wouldn't be) finger friendly either. There would be a touch screen Mac if it was.

So, one platform that can support the iPadish like app experience AND, given the right hardware, that and legacy Windows too. What's wrong with that. Cool, I say.

P.S. short cost discussion. I just got a new iPad, 64Gig model. Cost around $800. That's what my 64Gig HP Slate cost, but it came with an active stylus and dock. So it has 3 USB ports, HDMI out and an SD slot, for that $800. iPad has 3G, HP doesn't. Meh. Gotta try to look at comparable devices when you look at cost.